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Old Welsh Guy
23rd June 2004, 01:17 PM
I wrote this earlier today in reply to a question elsewhere, I though it might be an idea to post it here as a starter to get things rolling so to speak.

Professional SEO is about EVERYONE winning, it is a complete symbiotic relationship

Search engines - They win as they are provided with a set of pages that are easy to understand, and contain the quality information that their visitors search for.

Searchers/clients - They win as they are getting what they ask for from the search engines, they search for buy blue widgets, and get a page about blue widgets, where, in fact they can buy, blue widgets.

Site owners - They win as they are getting quality visitors who are doing what they want them to do, be it post, read, register, buy, whatever the end goal for the site is.

SEO's - They win because they get paid for making all parties concerned happy.

That IMO is how professional SEO should be considered, it is not about getting pages ranked, it is not about beating the search engines (although most good SEO's have this inbuilt desire to win) it IS about being the catalyst for a win win win situation, where the only losers are the people who have not hired you, and see their competition leapfrog them in the results, or often don't even see this, as they are actually appearing for and optimising for the wrong phrases. All they know is that their bottom line is dropping away, but can't for the life of them work out why.

Optimisation in my mind is all about taking a site and making it as good as you can get it, this includes navigation, usability, and function. The site should have a reson to exist, be it selling or informing, but the job of the Professional SEO is to make sure it does it's job.


Optimisation goes way beyond what is on the page, it encompasses usability and selling, but in this forum I guess the mani questions will run around seo methods, keyword researching, coding, tags metas, copywriting density and lots of other boring stuff.

The trick is to ask the question, and don't feel shy. I am self taught, and like Newton said, ' he made his discoveries by 'standing on the shoulders of giants', ask the questions that many others are simply to scared to post. :)

David Wallace
23rd June 2004, 01:25 PM
Couldn't agree with you more, James. When you are able to provide a complete solution like this to your clients, you'll find that they stick with you a long, long time. Heck, I have SEM campaigns that are 5 plus years old. You don't get that kind of longevity unless their sites are not only ranking well but converting as well.

Unfortunately some times (actually a lot of times) a client is their own worst enemy. They ignore your suggestions, have the site updated or redesigned and in the process remove all your optimization efforts, change your optimized copy, etc. They can get in the way of providing a complete solution. But oh how I love the ones who give you complete liberty both with site modifications and ideas. Those are the ones that make SEO fun and exciting.

Old Welsh Guy
23rd June 2004, 02:59 PM
I have had one this week, " here is my product database, here is my logo, do what you want" fantastic when you get given that much freedom. They gave me their list of 6 keywords/phrases:) somehow though in two days this has turned into almost 100 to go into a Google adwords campaign for market testing.

Tholzel
2nd July 2004, 08:51 AM
Unfortunately some times (actually a lot of times) a client is their own worst enemy. They ignore your suggestions, have the site updated or redesigned and in the process remove all your optimization efforts, change your optimized copy, etc. They can get in the way of providing a complete solution. But oh how I love the ones who give you complete liberty both with site modifications and ideas. Those are the ones that make SEO fun and exciting.

The elephant in the room is SEO that does a great job of bringing traffic to the site, but then turns the viewer off because the site is so obviously atuned to spiders rather than humans. In an unheard of test--putting up a site with ZERO SEO, but fascinationg copy--we got 8 out of 13 articles into the Google Top Ten ranking. Again, with no substantive SEO at all. (See: http://www.velocityassociates.net/pages/Rankings.php )

The metric should be the number of sales (not the number of hits) a site receives. Although 10% of 10,000 hits will be better than 25% of 1000 hits--so in that sense it is all relative...

Clearly both mechanical SEO and outstanding copy quality are necessary. (It's just so seldom one sees any mention of high-quality copy...)

Robert
2nd July 2004, 09:01 AM
Welcome Tholzel! :)

thejenn
2nd July 2004, 09:06 AM
SEO is about as useful as dung if you don't throw some usability and marketing in with it. You're absolutely right that a customer landing on a page that was clearly written for spiders rather than people isn't a great way to sell products.

But, there are plenty of ways to keep an eye on things like conversion rates, usability, etc... and to make changes to your site as needed to make sure that the traffic that comes is buying. It only makes sense...search engine traffic is about the best traffic you can get when it come to targeting and likelyhood of conversion, so if you're not doing the work to provide them with an environment that they'll want to buy in, you aren't doing your job.

I think that's part of why you are starting to see so many SEOs hooking up with design companies, usability companies and other marketing firms. SEO is simply another marketing outlet. You wouldn't celebrate a direct mail piece that you managed to send to 50,000 people if you didn't have a strong conversion rate, the same should hold true with traffic generated by search engine marketing.

copywriter
7th July 2004, 12:48 PM
You wouldn't celebrate a direct mail piece that you managed to send to 50,000 people if you didn't have a strong conversion rate, the same should hold true with traffic generated by search engine marketing.


Amen! This has been something I've been working with a LOT of clients on lately. The understanding that balance is not only extremely important, but downright vital to the success of any SEO campaign. You can't focus 100% on the engines or your sales will suffer. You also can't focus 100% on your sales or your positioning will suffer. Balance... balance... balance.

Karon

Tholzel
11th July 2004, 11:09 AM
<<Unfortunately some times (actually a lot of times) a client is their own worst enemy.>>

That and ignorance are probably the only enemies. I have had the board or directors task me with reposition a do-it-yourself website, a conversion the CEO claimed to be happy to off-load on some one who is an expert at it.

So we met on several occasions to begin the brainstorming process. But each meeting ended acrimoniously, with the CEO demanding to know "What's wrong with the website, anyway?" That is, what's wrong with the website that he so lovingly designed and copywrote?

The short answer is that this ego-mania leads to blindness that is almost incurable. Certainly mere reason won't do it. Thus, I now am forced to spend a lot of time searching out the stoppers to any web repostioning before I take on a job--but that is such a downer because you are asking negatively laden questions.

But the harsh reality of it is, that unless you can some how get an equal and opposite force to shield you against ego-mania. you probably won't get your repositioning accepted, and you probably also won't get paid!

BWelford
12th July 2004, 08:17 AM
Hi Tholzel, you seem to have a tough situation on your hands there.

Without knowing all the human dynamics and relative power positions of the participants, it's difficult to know how best to open up the discussion. If the boss sees the website as the electronic equivalent of his Cadillac and he just wants it polished up a bit, then your job is clearly defined.

If on the other hand the website has some business objective, then you can start some kind of process, including how it's performing now and where improvement is needed. If there is a willingness to discuss business objectives, then you may find one of my articles, "Make Your Website Your Most Powerful Sales Representative (http://www.strategicmarketingmontreal.ca/newsletter-32.htm)", one way of opening up the discussion.

Old Welsh Guy
13th July 2004, 07:37 AM
First off I think I should point out that IMO, SEO is NOT about getting your site a good ranking. THAT is just a part of it. 'Optimisation' means just that, to bring something to optimum performance. Anyone who thinks that SEO is about placement in the SERPS are talking about search engine placement companies, NOT SEO consultants or companies. No decent SEO would consider getting a bag of bones to the top. <rant over lol>

back to the dilemma

I think you have to reflect back his defensive position and his defence of something that is broken.

Personally I would ask him what it is that made him think that he needed SEO, I find that it is no use trying to tell someone what is wrong with soemthing they love, as their love of tht something just entrenches them further!

get HIM to tell YOU what is wrong. The simple fact is that it is not doing the job it was put there to do. that IMO has to be the very cornerstone of your argument. Until such time as you get the guy to admit it is not working your up against the brick wall.

Has he told you whta he expects the site to do for him? His aspirations for the site? try to drag him into collective reasoning rather than agreement of your proposals.

You need him to
1) agree it is not doing what he wants it to do
2) agree what it is that he wants it to do.

From that point you can lay a ath collectively piece by piece, element by element until the old site is completely blown away.

it is not going to be easy, but I can see no other way. You need to a psycologist in this scenario I think, you have to try to get him to believe that everything that has been agreed is his doing.

Lynn Terry
14th July 2004, 08:21 PM
Amen! This has been something I've been working with a LOT of clients on lately. The understanding that balance is not only extremely important, but downright vital to the success of any SEO campaign. You can't focus 100% on the engines or your sales will suffer. You also can't focus 100% on your sales or your positioning will suffer. Balance... balance... balance.

Just wanted to pipe in and say: Hello, Karon! It's a pleasure to find you here. I was just listening in to your interview with Mark U ;) I look forward to getting to know you and interacting with you here at the forum!


This has been a terrific thread so far... I'm going to enjoy this category :thumbsup:

Tholzel
15th July 2004, 09:53 AM
<<Has he told you whta he expects the site to do for him? His aspirations for the site? try to drag him into collective reasoning rather than agreement of your proposals.

You need him to
1) agree it is not doing what he wants it to do
2) agree what it is that he wants it to do.

From that point you can lay a ath collectively piece by piece, element by element until the old site is completely blown away.

it is not going to be easy, but I can see no other way. You need to a psycologist in this scenario I think, you have to try to get him to believe that everything that has been agreed is his doing.>>

Good points, all. But sometimes nothing works because the ego-problem is too entrenched. That was the case here. I reported back to the Board that I could not take on the job. It was useless for me to try to change the website when--in spite of his protestations to the contrary--the CEO did not really want his baby ruffled.

The only possible way to get out of this trap is to never let the CEO get to the point of defending his baby. Then, the step-by-step method quoted above has a chance to work. But once he has his feathers up--nothing works but strategic retreat.

marketinguy
15th July 2004, 02:51 PM
Hi everybody,

I was just wondering if any of you caught what Jill Whalen had to say in her newsletter (High Rankings Advisor - Issue No. 105). She mentions developing SEO "standards", which there clearly aren't any, yet.

I don't know if I've ever seen Jill so fired up. Her mention of ethics and good business practice was the foundation of a brutal pounding to those scamming, spamming SEOs.

"Any talk of having a set of standards or a code of ethics always gets shot down by people who have no problems spamming the search engines on their clients' behalf. There are too many SEOs who believe it is their job to get high rankings at all costs, without regard to what the search engines have to say about it. They say that they are paid to do a job for their client (get high rankings) and it makes no difference what methods they use to get them."
- Jill Whalen

I believe in developing these standards. The SEO industry could use a code of ethics to clear its name. After that, we'll be seeing a lot less of these spamming SEO firms. Good riddance!

David Wallace
15th July 2004, 05:56 PM
Yes I did and there is a pretty good thread (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/forum/showthread.php?t=566) going over at Search Engine Watch related to this in which Jill makes some excellent posts.

I think we not only need a set of standards but an organization that will help to educate the public about the scams and spam that can occur in our industry, something like the BBB which promotes ethical business practices and allows membership for those wishing to comply with those standards as well as mediate when a consumer feels those standards have been violated. In addition the organization can provide reports on companies that have received complaints, in the same way the BB does now. All in all, it could become a place where consumers can go to learn more about companies and acceptable SEM methods before they hire.

BWelford
16th July 2004, 07:25 AM
BTW, David, for completeness I might add that there is also a minority view in the Search Engine Watch that suggests a set of standards is not the answer. Well, actually, ... it's mostly me. :)

I believe it will be an enormous amount of effort and in the end will not work. My view is that the only definition of Spam that counts is that determined by the current practices of the Search Engines. So I propose a much simpler solution where the Search Engines "out" the bad actors by informing the website owners whose web pages have been de-indexed. I first mentioned this in a Cre8asite Forums discussion (http://www.cre8asiteforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=77154#77154) triggered by the Seth Godin article that seems to have precipitated all this anguish.

Tholzel
21st July 2004, 03:29 PM
it is not going to be easy, but I can see no other way. You need to a psycologist in this scenario I think, you have to try to get him to believe that everything that has been agreed is his doing.

It's true, that would be the only way to teach that old dog new tricks--and believe me I tried those negotiating tactics--but life is too short. As our third fruitless meeting was winding down it suddenly hit me: I am a positioning specialist, not a psychologist! Everything we had agreed to at the past meeting, he was taking back at this one, and we were now back to ground zero with his initial question: "What's wrong with the site anyway?"

I got up, looked him in his beady eyes, and said: "Nothing that doesn't reflect this company's position perfectly." And walked out.

It felt good (but it didn't pay good).

Old Welsh Guy
21st July 2004, 07:36 PM
You did right. If it dont feel right, don't do it!

On to the next client

Daria Goetsch
4th August 2004, 04:26 PM
I think we not only need a set of standards but an organization that will help to educate the public about the scams and spam that can occur in our industry, something like the BBB which promotes ethical business practices and allows membership for those wishing to comply with those standards as well as mediate when a consumer feels those standards have been violated. In addition the organization can provide reports on companies that have received complaints, in the same way the BB does now. All in all, it could become a place where consumers can go to learn more about companies and acceptable SEM methods before they hire.

I totally agree with you David. I think this would be a great way to go to step forward and create an objective organization that would benefit clients, air their complaints and also provide a place to list companies that do comply with standards.

StupidScript
4th August 2004, 06:35 PM
I believe it will be an enormous amount of effort and in the end will not work.

Anything good is worth the effort...yaddayah.

How about an independent, community-based solution rather than a centralized one? For example, some group of orgs (SEG included?) might spearhead a public participation program where a "checklist" or set of recommendations could be put together for potential users of SEO services. After a (lengthy) period of gathering input, opinions, best practices, etc., the orgs could publish their compiled findings as a tool for those in the market for SEO services.

The structure of the "checklist" might include both "moral" and "amoral" guidelines which fit into current SE regulations. "Amoral" SEO providers could enjoy the fact that their approaches have been codified, and "moral" SEO providers could languish in their humanistic superiority. Both groups would then be identified for the benefit of the purchaser, and whichever way the purchaser wished to go ("proper" or "at all costs"), they would be able to discern what they might expect to experience.

Kinda like the BBB, but I'm (superficially) envisioning an evolving set of guidelines in an evolving arena, rather than a clearing house with accreditation and such.

Am I rambling? :rolleyes:

Hieunt1
22nd September 2012, 11:11 PM
Old info, but it work!

wnye
24th September 2012, 09:51 AM
These days its all about keeping creating original and quality content. If you are going to engage in back linking make sure they're high page ranked, quality do follow links and not spammy link farms and the likes.

donovanjames786
3rd October 2012, 10:57 AM
Search engine optimization (SEO) is the process of improving the visibility of a website or a web page in a search engine's "natural," or un-paid ("organic" or "algorithmic"), search results. In general, the earlier (or higher ranked on the search results page), and more frequently a site appears in the search results list, the more visitors it will receive from the search engine's users. SEO may target different kinds of search, including image search, local search, video search, academic search, news search and industry-specific vertical search engines.

Zora2012
14th January 2013, 11:27 PM
Simply put, search engine optimization is the process of improving the quality and volume of web traffic to a website by employing a series of proven SEO techniques that help a website achieve a higher ranking with the major search engines when certain keywords and phrases are put in the search field.

guptaabhijit318
4th February 2013, 12:14 AM
SEO that search engine optimization is a technique which helps search engines find and rank your site higher than the millions of other sites in reply to a search query. Hence SEO helps you get traffic from search engines.

darkavenger972
4th February 2013, 04:11 AM
For those who are looking for an optimization of their SEO strategy, let me share some links! I'm french so use the translation tool of your browser if you can't understand this language :c

http://referencement.abondance.com/2010/09/20-conseils-pour-reussir-son.html

http://www.insidedaweb.com/referencement-seo/25-conseils-seo-site-commerce/

http://www.seomix.fr/structure-seo/

http://www.le-libriste.fr/2009/04/promouvoir-son-blog/

Hope I helped ! :welcome2:

accurate.cygnet
4th February 2013, 10:58 PM
Client is not concerned with the SEO work, Why the hell he would b concerned about the work we do...what they need is performance at the end of the day. His purpose must be fulfilled. Make him assured that his keywords would be on the top, the client would be ready to accept all your suggestions.

abhirampathak3
5th February 2013, 02:40 AM
Search Engine Optimization or SEO is the simple activity of ensuring a website can be found in search engines for words and phrases relevant to what the site is offering. In many respects it's simply quality control for websites. Having said that if there was ever an industry that was little understood by outsiders it's SEO.

johnmclaren
7th February 2013, 07:23 AM
I wrote this earlier today in reply to a question elsewhere, I though it might be an idea to post it here as a starter to get things rolling so to speak.

Professional SEO is about EVERYONE winning, it is a complete symbiotic relationship

Search engines - They win as they are provided with a set of pages that are easy to understand, and contain the quality information that their visitors search for.

Searchers/clients - They win as they are getting what they ask for from the search engines, they search for buy blue widgets, and get a page about blue widgets, where, in fact they can buy, blue widgets.

Site owners - They win as they are getting quality visitors who are doing what they want them to do, be it post, read, register, buy, whatever the end goal for the site is.

SEO's - They win because they get paid for making all parties concerned happy.

That IMO is how professional SEO should be considered, it is not about getting pages ranked, it is not about beating the search engines (although most good SEO's have this inbuilt desire to win) it IS about being the catalyst for a win win win situation, where the only losers are the people who have not hired you, and see their competition leapfrog them in the results, or often don't even see this, as they are actually appearing for and optimising for the wrong phrases. All they know is that their bottom line is dropping away, but can't for the life of them work out why.

Optimisation in my mind is all about taking a site and making it as good as you can get it, this includes navigation, usability, and function. The site should have a reson to exist, be it selling or informing, but the job of the Professional SEO is to make sure it does it's job.


Optimisation goes way beyond what is on the page, it encompasses usability and selling, but in this forum I guess the mani questions will run around seo methods, keyword researching, coding, tags metas, copywriting density and lots of other boring stuff.

The trick is to ask the question, and don't feel shy. I am self taught, and like Newton said, ' he made his discoveries by 'standing on the shoulders of giants', ask the questions that many others are simply to scared to post. :)

Great input!!!! Glad that you shared the basics of the SEO.

nancy123
11th February 2013, 05:36 AM
In the present competitive world of marketing SEO is not enough to meet business goal. However, SEO and social media share a mutually beneficial relationship that can simply be described as a symbiotic. This symbiotic relation is enough to leverage your business online and get what you want from your prospect.

Johnbolton
25th June 2014, 04:33 AM
SEO- Search engine optimization
SEO helps to generate organic traffic and brings 80% targeted visitor for your website.

patricksimzon
18th August 2014, 02:45 AM
As described by search engines, it's about making your content more easily reviewed by search engine spiders, and maybe strengthening the keywords that it gets found for.

It has evolved to gaming the search engines by different forms of manipulation, while alternate signals like social site menions are becoming more important, links from other sites remain the biggest ranking factor that is manipulated, Google states somewhere that Any links obtainedfor the purposes of search rank manipulation are a violation of their guidelines, the trick is to make those links looks natural and 'organic' as if other webmasters voluntarily linked to your site, these links are counted as popularity votes.

davidpotter
25th August 2014, 12:34 AM
I think SEO is optimizing your website for the search engines like google, yahoo, bing.
purpose of seo is to make postings on your website on top of google.

sirishasiri
11th January 2018, 04:30 AM
SEO stands for search optimization it is increasing the visibility of website or webpage.