Hey guys,

I am curious what software you use to develop your web pages. Is there any certain html software or books you recommend? I am talking about anything from learning from the beginning to advanced development. Any info would be of great help...

Linda, This is going to sound nuts but I use notepad,... I learned html the old fashoned way - (I read a few books) if I could tell a new person where to start (I know your not new) I would say go to the local library and read up on html and its tags - learn how to code a page and format it the way you want by hand. This lets a person avoid code bloat and it lets a person know how to change things on the fly just by clicking (view)(source) in IE and saving to their HD, then you can upload to your server - man I sound like a caveman, I know but I think your better off in the long run if the program you use to code html, Shtml or edit javascript is the program between your ears. Only thing lacking is spellcheck and I just copy and past the copy into word to test that - am I nuts or what? Be honest.



SteveOOOoooo

SteveO is right Linda, there's no substitute for knowing HTML. I too code by hand, but I use Homesite (was Allaire ... now Macromedia). For those who code directly in HTML it is a godsend, it completes tags for you, suggests the correct properties for each tag, colour codes your work so you can easily find the correct area you are looking for, has a spell checker (SteveO ;)), validates your code and much more. These aren't necessarily user-aids, but more time saving features for the hand-coder.

However, if you are not au fait with the language, the best WYSIWYG editor (What You See Is What You Get) has to be Macromedia's Dreamweaver. I have used most of these programs at one time or another and Dreamweaver produces the cleanest code by far. It also has much better support for CSS than most of it's competitors and a vast amount of add-ons available from the Macromedia Exchange. That said, it is still better if you know HTML. I can almost guarantee that if you create a page in Dreamweaver which consists of, say 800 lines of code, I could whittle it down to probably 700 or possibly less, meaning the page is more optimised and will load quicker.

One thing I will say, is to avoid FrontPage like the plague :eek: FP produces horrible code, adding all sorts of unecessary rubbish and overheads. You'll also find that most of the pages you create can only be viewed *exactly* as you created them in IE whilst getting strange results in other browsers.

Understanding how HTML works will only help in the design process even if you do use a WYSIWYG editor. If you find you have time go buy a book or two, or search for some online tutorials because HTML is an easy language to learn - heck, if I can do it......

Yes, I would recommend Dreamweaver MX as well. I usually start by working up the basic text in Notepad, then copy and paste this into whatever parts of the Dreamweaver page I have created.

One important skill in Dreamweaver is switching between the Design view and the Code view to use whichever view is most effective for the particular task. However if you know you want to tweak a piece of the code, it is usually much easier to find the position in Design view then switch views to locate yourself at exactly the point in the code you need to work on.

I started with FP simply because the learning curve was faster and easier. Yes, you stll need to learn html and yes, FP bloats code somewhat, but the newer updates of the program are aggresively fixing this. The important thing is what results you get - does the page worK? Is it highly indexed? In other words, the authoring program is not nearly as important as a site that gets results - and that's what's between your ears, not a piece of software. Don't get overly fixated on Dreamweaver vs FP vs whatever - learn what the search engines want for high rankings and what makes a page convert visitors into sales - then you are on your way to sucess.

Hi donp, welcome to the forum! :)

I use Frontpage 2003. It has a lot more features than previous versions. As far as the bloated code, Frontpage 2003 has a code optimizer which takes out a lot of that code. It also has the split view (code view, page view) which makes it a lot easier.

Welcome P Page! :D

Thank you Robert. Glad to be here.

Hi, Linda:
I started out with HTML and a book call "The Complete Idiot's Guide" to Creating a Web Page. It's written by a guru software genius named Paul McFedries.
I believe I got the book through Amazon. It has a CD, and a lot of goodies on the CD that help you along. Absolutely worth the $24.95 I spend.
Now I had to find an HTML editor -- I wasn't happy with not having help on that end also. After searching I found an editor called KOALA - and it's a great package. Not expensive (I don't remember how much), and I really learned the coding of HTML between these two sources. KOALA lets you test your HTML, provides all the tags, and will upload to your ISP when you're ready.
Then after about a year (takes awhile) I moved on to Adobe GoLive, a tremendous web site development software program -- it builds web sites; this program has a sharp learning curve, but it also has an advantage.
You can buy a book called Classroom In A Book, that's developed by the Adobe development team. Great Book. By the time you work through the 15 or so assignments and lessons, you know Adobe GoLive, and you're on your way to becoming a fairly competent web designer, ready to move on the such as CGI, PHP, whatever.
When you get ready to do that, check out ed2go.com. This is an on line educational serve whose classes (I took Intro to SQL) are excellent. And they're pretty cheap -- usually $59.00 for a 12 week course.
That's about all I have to say.
It's a lot of fun, developing web pages and sites. Creative for the not particular creative, like me.
Good Luck.
Mars

Good to have you at the forum, mars!

I'm going to just say I'm glad I dont use any of these god-send programs, my sites are stunning and as spider-friendly as any out there... I'm glad everyone likes these things but I'm going to remain a cowboy and do-it-myself.


SteveOOOoooo

Hey Guys

Thanks for all the great information. It's amazing how many approaches there are to learning html. I personally have learned from "Html for Dummies" because that is exactly what I felt like when I first got interested. So SteveO, I don't think you are nuts, you are right on the money. The best way to learn anything is from scratch so to speak because all the other programs won't really make any sense to you if you don't understand the code to begin with.

But I also believe once you have a little knowledge under your belt, a little help from software doesn't hurt but will help my understanding of how to design a web page so I am excited to look into all the different options of software there are out there.

I have met alot of people online who have designed their own web pages and basically learned from scratch so to speak, taught themselves which I think is awesome. Keep the info coming........... :D

I learned HTML off the W3 Schools site (http://www.w3schools.com/). They have some great HTML and XHTML tutorials.

HTML Kit is my editor of choice for a couple of reasons:
1) It's free to download. (http://www.chami.com/html-kit/)
2) I has a built in HTML validator so I can doublecheck my code.
3) I love the plug-ins that other community members have contributed.

Hi Linda,

I will add my advice to the mix here. I am another fan of Macromedia Homesite (http://www.macromedia.com/software/homesite/). I have hand-coded from the beginning, which takes a bit longer than using the WYSIWYG editors, but typically generates cleaner code and faster loading pages.

While I know that improvements have been made to Dreamweaver and Frontpage, I am still of the opinion that a human brain can optimize a page of html far better than a program can.

In order to go about learning HTML by hand, the best book that I have come across so far is HTML for the World Wide Web with XHTML and CSS: Visual QuickStart Guide, Fifth Edition (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0321130073/qid=1088783041/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-0172670-4533535?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) by Elizabeth Castro. It's a great reference if you are just starting out, but also includes more advanced CSS and XHTML concepts to keep you going.

--------------
Chris Roberts
Triphase Media (http://www.triphasemedia.com) - Photography, Video and Web Development

I now use DWmx2004 which is great. I also use Corel draw Coz I like it. Regarding html, I learned by viwing source code in notepad. Eventually i got a book can't remember the name, but it was by Paul McF as mentioned earlier.

I am pretty much self taught on everything. I actually learned Corel draw 3 from scratch with like nothing, and also Paint shop pro which i love, but now use the DW compatible stuff as it is easier

i am a homesite user also - i learned by using dreamweaver at the beginning and then always reviewed the html directly that was being generated. Overtime I was working in both, and then eventually just homesite. now dreamweaver is a little better with working directly in the code ... but my advice is don't depend on a wysiwig even if you use one at the beginning to get started. eventually the best solution is not to use a wysiwig, whatever that might be ... notepad, homesite, etc.

Hi Linda, I have used Frontpage, DreamWeaver, GoWire, and Coldfusion. The one that I like the best is DreamWeaver, however, if your looking to host it on the server, Coldfusion is the way to go. It is located within Dreamweaver. I do know HTML and Javascript but I like to wysiwyg programs to use as templetes. The only downside to wysiwyg programs is that you get a lot of unnecessary code. It all just depends on the user, really.


Best of Luck to you with your site. :thumbsup:

Hello,

My journey was actually a wee bit different than anyone's. I started out using the online editor for Geocities and using WebTV (before it was bought by Microsoft) since I couldn't afford a computer. Used the www.htmlgoodies.com and other various online resourses for learning HTML basics

Once I saved enough $$ for a computer, I then just viewed source and figured things out from there using NotePad and eventually graduating to HomeSite.

Advise to beginners, learn to write clean and standard code that is semantically correct. (Yes I am a firm believer in standards mainly for the fact that it makes it easier to code and troubleshoot when necessary, updates take 1/2 the time) Remember IE isn't the only browser out there! Learn the differences between those browsers and their different versions. (Help with solving incorrect rendering problems) and in the same train of thought, Windows isn't the only computer OS that is being used either!

There are probably a few more tips but mainly, have patience, practice, practice and practice some more.

there are many, many Frontpage add ons that you can get these days
some even remove excess code from pages

here is a site with some AccessFP (http://accessfp.net/addons.htm)

Linda, rather a late reply, but I second the recommendation for Elizabeth Castro's Visual Quickstart Guide - none better. I bought mine in 2000 and still refer to it regularly. In a similar vein: Visual Quickpro Guide "PHP and MySQL for dynamic websites" by Larry Ullman. I believe developing some PHP/MySQL knowledge is now vital alongside HTML. Also vital is an understanding of CSS and how to build table-less web pages - all the required knowledge can be found on the web.

I couldn't manage without the help of people in forums either. I'm constantly amazed by how helpful and knowledgeable forum people are, and I try to put back some of what I get out. One gets problems that can only be solved by the generosity of others.

As an HTML editor, I use EditPlus - a VFM program that I like above others I've tried. I have used FrontPage but never liked it. I suppose it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. With a WYSIWYG editor a decent page can be built, but full control over construction quality can only be had by "hand-coding" the whole thing. After a while one builds up a library of page elements that work the way one likes, which becomes a timesaver.

I also use Photoshop for image cropping and optimising, and a very old version of Adobe LiveMotion - still superb for building buttons and graphic elements.

I don't agree with what someone said above about things you need to be able to make a good design. Design is not the same as construction. No software or book will make anyone into a good designer, though I strongly believe design skills can be learnt if one is open to it.

Patrick

Basic text editor (pico, vi, EditPad Classic/Pro), like SteveOoooooo and many others. I first learned SGML, then heard about some new markup language coming out of a lab in Geneva. At the time HTML only had about 15 tags. Learning more as the language developed, and spending countless late nights playing around with everything got me where I am today.

Basically my advice in this area is always: use what you are most comfortable with. The tool should not dictate your creative expression. I find that most WYSIWYG tools have difficulty with code that is not in their lexicon, and for that reason are limiting to the developer. The reflections on the level of "code bloat" produced by apps like FrontPage ("...less code bloat...") come, perhaps, from not realizing how much bloat there is and being grateful when there is less. With a basic text editor, you don't produce ANY bloat if you have a good idea what the code does and why/where it's needed.

Use a WYSIWYG if you must, to get started, but unless you want to be constantly buying product upgrades and being left out of the cutting-edge development cycles, move ahead to learn the languages and produce your own code as time goes by.

If learned well, your coding hours will be much more efficient and the resulting product will be better able to meet your increasingly sophisticated needs.

I will lay down the gauntlet and say that professional web developers who do site development for a living should absolutely NOT be using a WYSIWYG production environment. My 5-year old nephew can do THAT ... for free! Embrace your chosen career, and make yourself the best you can be by refraining from the use of generic, one-size-fits-all tools. You'll thank me, later.

... professional web developers who do site development for a living should absolutely NOT be using a WYSIWYG production environment ...Hear, hear ... pros using WYSIWYGs are not pros

Well, kinda late into this thread... but have been out on vacation...

I started with Dreamweaver MX.... and havn't felt the need to move on..

www.expresssolutions.us (http://www.expresssolutions.us/)... let me know if you think I need to...:) I will take all into consideration.

I'm with James. For the best cuisine, you have to be able to cook.

Hiya, Soapy!

As invited (and gently enough, I hope), I took a quick look at your site and its code, produced by Dreamweaver.

There is definitely bloat and confusion within those characters, all of which is transparent in Dreamweaver but apparent on inspection. The result is slightly increased download and rendering time for the pages, the performance of the image swapping is not what it could be, and you will be forced to work too hard to get good algorithm SE positioning.

For example(s):

1)
<link href="style.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">

That tag is in the code 4 times, with yet another reference to another stylesheet of the same name in the parent directory. Re-initializing the same .css file over and over causes the browser to perform more slowly in the rendering of the page. If the parent-directory stylesheet contains changed style values for classes and objects of the same name, they would be "overwritten" by the final reference to the original stylesheet, as above.

2)
The Dreamweaver (Macromedia) image pre-loading and swapping scripts are inefficient, and do not perform their intended goals with all browsers. A pre-load script needs to create references to objects that reference the cached swap images, and then the swap script needs to use those object references to achieve the fastest result. MM swap code does not do this well.

3)
The MM window reloading script is a nice touch to include NN4+ browsers, which have trouble re-rendering the page when the window is resized, however in this case, you are using a fixed-width table, which would not resize in that event, and would cause no rendering trouble for NN4+. The reloading script would be good for a page that flowed into the available window area, but it's useless here, and only adds to the "code bloat".

4) lastly ... :)
The pages follow a pretty standard layout which is easily accomplished with some elderly HTML tags. The use of the positioned DIVisions is unneccessary, and limits the experience of your visitors who have not upgraded to the latest-and-greatest browsing products. There's no need to punish your visitors who use the older browsers, when the layout could be expressed so much more simply with the same visual result for all browsers ... even the really old ones like Erwise and Viola.

Clean code is not just for site performance. Spiders have to wade through all of that to get to the meat of your site, which could - would - have an impact on your algorithm positioning, too.

Anyway. Thanks for the opportunity to illustrate, Soapy! I had fun! :thumbsup:

For something free and easy, I use the Composer part of Mozilla. http://www.mozilla.org/.

Mozilla is a great web brower you should have installed just to make sure your pages look good in something other than IE. After installation, click on "Window" in the tool bar and select Composer.

Hi folks. I'm new to the forum and this is my first post! Yippee! I feel compelled to say a few things here.

I've been a professional web designer and web application programmer for 7 years now and owned my own web design/development company for more than 2 years. I can tell you what I've learned. For WYSIWIG editors, Dreamweaver is the best, but IMHO they all stink! Anything that messes with my code is evil ....and they all do. I can't understand why in the world they can't display the look without messing up the code.

I use Visual Studio .NET 2003. VS.NET is a killer editor, but overkill for just HTML.

The thing I most want to say to you guys is this:
If you care at all about your business, then don't monkey around with your website. If it looks bad, cheap, and unprofessional, then guess what your business looks like. I see so many businesses do their own sites or get their nephew, or the neighbor kid down the street to do their website and, you know what? That's exactly what it looks like. Does the neighbor kid do your bookkeeping? Then why trust a non-professional to do your website?

Anyone with a copy of FrontPage or Dreamweaver can create a web page. Just like anyone can go down to Wal-Mart and buy a welding machine and start welding things together. That doesn't mean they are any good or even know the standards and best practices.

Your website is VERY important to your business. It is more important than any print advertising you do. Why? Your website will be seen by more people for longer periods of time. If you place one ad in a newspaper, for instance, then only a handful of people will see it on one day. After that, it's gone. Your website is forever (so to speak) and is always available to the entire planet.

It doesn't cost that much to have a professional create a clean, professional website for your business that will actually attract and retain customers/viewers rather than repel them.

If I'm in need of some product or service, the first place I look is on the Internet. If I have the choice between a business that has a website and one that doesn't, I pick the one with the website (unless the website is horrible, then I pick the one without one). If I have the choise between two that both have sites, I'm going with the one with the better site. It gives me a better impression about the business and about the people who run it. I feel more comfortable with someone who cares about the appearance of their business than with one that doesn't.

That's my 2 cents. Thanks for letting me rant. I love a good rant now and then. :)

-- Colin

Hi Colin, welcome to the forum! :)

My primary offline reference (book) is: Dynamic HTML, The Definitive Reference by Danny Goodman.

I use the Javascript Core Reference and the PHP manual and the MySQL manual online. I usually just need to find the syntax for whatever language I'm using, hence my use of "reference" materials instead of tutorials and whatnot.

For concepts and inspiration ... I use this and other forums.

$0.02 ;)

The best book I'vefound is 'HTML for the world wide web', by Elizabeth Castro, Peachpit Press. I have the 5th edition but check for a sixth. It is so good I binned my Frontpage program! Peachpit do a whole series of more advanced books, if you get keen
I guess this answers 'which software?' Don't bother. All software writing programs produce dreadful code which is very difficult to amend.

Peter

Anything that gets you to bin Frontpage earns a thumbs up :thumbsup: Once you have got the hang of basic HTML there's no looking back. Then the next book to read is 'Designing with Web Standards' by Jeffrey Zeldman (New Riders - ISBN 0-7357-1201-B). It will completely revolutionise the way you code your pages, making them more accessible to all users and search engines and 'future-proofing' them. ;)

I also agree with everybody that has posted; learning html is a must. I took a class on learning html, C++, and javascript so we didn't get too in depth with just html. (All programing languages are very valuable to know) I suggest reading books on html or even just searching around on the web. There are many great websites out there that teach you how to use html. The websites are great because if you do not understand something you can ask them, you can't do this with a book.
Once you learn the basics of html you can use any html editor to make your site. Since I didn't know a ton of html I used an editor and found that what I did know about html has helped me a lot. I probably spend half of my time in the html part and the other half in the editor part (I use Namo Web Editor where there is three screens you can view: the html raw code, the edited code, and a preview of what it would look like online) Namo Web Editor is much like dreamweaver and frontpage, I have worket with both of these programs.
The only thing I can recommend is get educated about everything. Not only html but javascript as well. If you are creating any forms in your website javascript will help you out with that. The more you know the easier it will be.

The book "Read Less - Learn More Html" is great.

As far as designing websites, straight html is great to know. I also use an easy sitebuilder a lot - saves me a lot of time. :)

Teresa

liz castro, or liz castro! also for extras that come later, like php and javascript

See this thread (http://www.smallbusinessbrief.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18740) for a good launching point on learning php. worked for me :)

Well when I'm not hand coding in Notepad...... thanks to lessons from webmonkey.com's tutorials, tizag.com, and csszengarden.com's I'm beginning to like Aptana. I just found it recently so I haven't spent much time working with it. It certainly isn't minimalistic but it works.

Still, editors need to be redrawn from the ground up to be built as rapid css authoring tools if you ask me.

I have found that the Visual Quickstart series are the best books for learning beginner or advanced web development. I would recommend starting with HTML, then moving to JavaScript, and then PHP. There is at least one book for each. I would recommend getting the latest version of each.

Dreamweaver is pretty handy when it comes to coding, and it's very easy to learn. There are tutorial videos on Youtube that are really helpful.

Nevertheless, I highly recommend learning how to code on notepad first, or at least, understand how the concept works. You could check out w3schools.com for that.

To start someone from scratch, I like Sams Teach Yourself html and CSS in 24 Hours. You're not going to get best practices there, but you will get up to speed on basic mark-up pretty fast. I'm basing my comments on an older edition here, the newest may be even better.