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Robert
7th October 2004, 12:44 PM
Source: Search Engine Guide

http://www.searchengineguide.com/claiborne/2004/1007_sc1.html

Snippet:
"When it comes to keyword selection, clients always want to optimize for the highest searched terms (according to keyword research tools) and those alone. It takes some convincing to get them to go after lower search volume, but more relevant phrases. It's become a regular part of the cycle with my clients, especially those who are learning about SEO and the process of optimizing a site."

jlknauff
25th October 2004, 09:25 AM
A good way to approach that is to explain to them that if they are targeting a KW that isn't appropriate just to get more people to the site they 1.)will have a lower conversion rate, 2.) will find it VERY difficult to rank well for that KW anyway, & 3.) stand a good chance of getting banned from search engines & directories.

If that doesn't change their mind, do you really still want to deal with them?

David Wallace
25th October 2004, 10:06 AM
jlknauff, while I agree with your first and second statements, your third item (stand a good chance of getting banned from search engines & directories.) couldn't be further from the truth!

You will not get banned for targeting generic or highly competitive keywords. First of all, search engines rarely ban or penalize a site and second of all, if they do, it is for deceptive spamming techniques such as cloaking or participating in link farm strategies, etc.

Robert
25th October 2004, 09:39 PM
Hi jlknauff, welcome to the forum! :standingw

StupidScript
26th October 2004, 12:32 PM
Welcome, jlknauff!

People often refine their search 2-3 times before getting the results they expect.

Too true. In our industry (criminal defense law), we find that the really expensive, oft-searched generic terms are not the ones that pay off. We realize a much higher ROI on the extremely targeted, 5-6 word phrases that are in the $0.10 CPC range.

Knowing this, we have a select group of top-competition terms to keep our brand present in the results, and use a huge number of more detailed terms to get the clicks that count the most, when our clients are done searching for generic info and want something specific.

When we want to start a new campaign, or extend our current campaigns, we turn to Wordtracker and the Overture keyword tool and the others, but then we try to expand those lists by combining terms and adding locale-specific words to the terms to get our list.

IntegraSpec
17th January 2005, 10:37 AM
Hi,

How many keywork (digit/characters) can we use per page?

Sorry if that question as been ask before but I did a search on the site without result because it seem the searching capability was down for some reason.

Thanks

Marc

David Wallace
17th January 2005, 11:52 AM
There is no rule to how much content you can place on a page. Now if you are optimizing a particular page to place better in the search engines, then it is good to focus on one phrase per page. You can target two but in most cases, you will only want to focus on one. That is not a hard rule but is more due to the fact that a search engine will only index about 64 characters from the title tag. Therefore if you want a page to target several phrases, it is going to be difficult to represent all of those in such a short title tag.

IntegraSpec
17th January 2005, 11:56 AM
Thank you David for your prompt reply. :thumbsup:

Marc

4ndr3w
18th January 2005, 08:11 AM
Therefore if you want a page to target several phrases, it is going to be difficult to represent all of those in such a short title tag.

That's very interesting! But clarify something for me: does this mean that the engine quits indexing the title tag when it hits </title> or 64 characters, whichever comes first; or does this mean the engine indexes the page starting at <title>, indexes the next 64 characters no matter what they are, and then quits?

Sorry, this is a new idea to me, and I just want to be sure that I understand.

David Wallace
18th January 2005, 04:06 PM
I think 64 characters is just a general figure. I am not sure if a search engine will stop indexing at a certain point or simply cuts off what is shown in the SERPs at a certain point. Each engine will be different as well.

My own practice it to try to keep title tags to 64 characters or less (including spaces) and list what phrase I am targeting first and then the web site or company name. If you go over 64 characters, it is not going to hurt you but it may mean that some of the contents of the title tag are going to get cut off.

Robert
18th January 2005, 04:40 PM
Welcome to the forum IntegraSpec! :)

4ndr3w
18th January 2005, 04:59 PM
That's very useful to know - thanks for the great tips!

IntegraSpec
19th January 2005, 07:16 AM
Thanks Robert

Marc

jlknauff
29th January 2005, 09:09 AM
jlknauff, while I agree with your first and second statements, your third item (stand a good chance of getting banned from search engines & directories.) couldn't be further from the truth!

You will not get banned for targeting generic or highly competitive keywords. First of all, search engines rarely ban or penalize a site and second of all, if they do, it is for deceptive spamming techniques such as cloaking or participating in link farm strategies, etc.

If you take steps to get a site to rank for a KW that has nothing to do with your site, yes, you can can banned. And to say that search engines rarely ban sites is totally incorrect. My guess is that (fortunately) most of the people you know use good SEO tactics and thus have never gotten banned. I've seen it happen lots of times to other people-espesially the ones that knew nothing about SEO and took bad advice.

David Wallace
29th January 2005, 11:14 AM
If you take steps to get a site to rank for a KW that has nothing to do with your site, yes, you can can banned. And to say that search engines rarely ban sites is totally incorrect.
I would say only 1 person out of 99 that come to a forum and say "my site has been banned" have actually been banned, Therefore that is a small percentage in my opinion. Also if someone takes steps to get a site ranked for keywords that the site doesn't support such as with a porno site targeting Disney related keywords (I have heard that this actually happened) then that falls under the guise of a spamming technique.

bragadocchio
29th January 2005, 11:36 AM
I would say only 1 person out of 99 that come to a forum and say "my site has been banned" have actually been banned, Therefore that is a small percentage in my opinion.

I have the same experience. It's often a conclusion that people can jump to, that they've been banned by the engines because their page doesn't exist in the index.

But that can happen for some other reasons too. A server misconfiguration is one cause I've seen more than a few times.

But I will have to say that it may just be a small percentage of people who have been banned who want to admit it in public, on a forum, and leave what may be a permanent record of that live on the web somewhere.

I do believe that the number of bannings is small, but there are lots of potential traps for the unwary, and for those who haven't done enough research to know better.

TechEvangelist
31st January 2005, 09:52 AM
I agree that banning a site is unusual. Most sites simply fall in the rankings due to penalties or poor design techniques. The best way to determine if a mature site is actually banned is:

1. PageRank = 0
2. All pages have disapeared from G's index
3. All backlinks have disapeared from G

Numerous clients have come to me be over the past year who though they have been banned, but most just had penalties applied for mirror sites or duplicate content. Only two were actually banned due to egregious and intentional spamming. Both did get back into G after we cleaned up the sites and had the site owners send several mea culpa e-mails to G.

Several of the SEO forums are loaded with threads about sites that recently lost 50 to 300 rank positions. Google is on a witch hunt for spammers, so keep it clean.

Google admitted to one of my clients that they were being penalized for engaging in link exchange programs (the Google rep called it link farms and web rings).

Google has posted a warning that says: "Don't participate in link schemes designed to increase your site's ranking or PageRank. In particular, avoid links to web spammers or bad neighborhoods on the web as your own ranking may be affected adversely by those links."

IntegraSpec
4th February 2005, 08:39 AM
Why would someone put the following in is meta content? It is a long string of "&#and a number"

for some reason it wont let me copy & paste the string

Thanks

Marc

4ndr3w
4th February 2005, 09:12 AM
It sounds to me like a string of HTML special characters. Most every character has an HTML "code equivalent". For example, to produce an angle bracket in a browser window, you would put "& # 6 0 ;" in your source (without the quotes or spaces). If you just typed a less-than sign instead, the browser would think it was an extra close-html-tag, and your page would break.

Here's a really good list of HTML special character codes (http://webmonkey.wired.com/webmonkey/reference/special_characters/).

Not sure why special characters would appear in the meta information of a site, as the browser does not render head information in a page. Maybe the author is hiding an e-mail address in the meta information so that it can't be scraped by a robot.

IntegraSpec
4th February 2005, 10:17 AM
Thanks for the link 4ndr3w. :)

I am trying to evaluate the meaning of the codes with the link that you gave me but I am faced with a wall. They have something like this & # 1 3 ; & # 1 0 ; & # 9 ; from there it is just a list of the above code.

Marc

4ndr3w
4th February 2005, 10:21 AM
Paste the whole string without spaces into a reply on this board. The browser will convert it all into plain English when you preview the post.

If you want, you could then post it here (if it's not too off-topic), 'cause now I'm curious to know what it really is, and figure out why it's in the meta-data!

IntegraSpec
4th February 2005, 10:46 AM
The problem is it wont do anything when I try to paste it.
Bestway is go to the following link and look at their meta content.

[removed url, no need to single this site out - David Wallace]

Thanks

Marc

4ndr3w
4th February 2005, 10:55 AM
Weird. I went to their home page, viewed the source, and I see only two meta tags in the head (description and keywords), but none of what you describe. Am I looking in the wrong place?

David Wallace
4th February 2005, 11:24 AM
We are kind of getting off topic here guys. This thread is suppossed to be related to keywords, not trying to figure out what some meta tag is. Let's get back on topic if we can.

I removed the URL above because there is no need to single this site out.

hscpub
14th February 2005, 10:57 AM
An interesting part of the intial discussion on keywords is its relationship to conversion. If you select only the most relevant keywords, then when visitors visit your site, even if they are smaller in number, a higher percentage, all things being equal, should be interested in the content of your site because the content is a close fit to the keywords that brought them there, and thus sales, conversion, should be greater.

All SEO's I am imagining get some pressure or questions from clients, at least some of them, in regard to not only bringing traffic but increasing purchases. Conversion. Even Google offers conversion tracking software and I believe Overture does too.

Writing good copy has been a mainstay of conversion techniques, but I believe this just scratches the surface. I believe that personalization is another big step, for example, it's a well proven fact that features such as Amazon's that point out similar products to those already purchased, or those that purchased your item also liked xyz item (s) offer greater cross-selling and conversion opportunities and results. This is just one very small example with personalization -- when you know more about the individual and target the message, of course greater response is going to be the result.

In the larger sense I believe that permission marketing, an extension of even relevance marketing (just made up that term I believe) will transform online marketing. We offer publishing on demand and research on demand, and our next area is advertising on demand. Madison Avenue Fortune 500 online advertising business is being transformed by companies we also are starting to work with, by showing how the generic ad is fading and targeted, personalized advertising is replacing it. When it becomes more permission based, I believe further gains will be realized.

Thank you.

Alex Hammer, CEO
HSC Media

jlknauff
20th May 2005, 10:51 PM
You will not get banned for targeting generic or highly competitive keywords.No, but targeting words that are not relevant to the content you will run a risk of being banned.

In most cases, you won't be banned because most people are just using tags and very basic SEO. The problem comes up when people start going overboard or using "black hat" seo to rank for words that have high monthly searches but are not relevant.

You could look at it like steroids in sports. You probably won't get caught until you really start to rock and someone is upset that you beat them :D

Neal
23rd May 2005, 02:11 PM
Source: Search Engine Guide

http://www.searchengineguide.com/claiborne/2004/1007_sc1.html

Snippet:
"When it comes to keyword selection, clients always want to optimize for the highest searched terms (according to keyword research tools) and those alone. It takes some convincing to get them to go after lower search volume, but more relevant phrases. It's become a regular part of the cycle with my clients, especially those who are learning about SEO and the process of optimizing a site."

Yes, I've found this to be true as well. It does take some convincing to target their keywords/key phrases more tightly. But when they are convinced and their sites rank well for the chosen k/w's or k/p's they are more than happy :)